Proof of Humanity Meetup @ Devcon 5, Osaka – Kleros House

Proof of Humanity Meetup @ Devcon 5, Osaka – Kleros House


Around this ideas that we had and we wanted to share with all the people in the ecosystem. This is not a Kleros project. We just had this idea because we did some work with the token curated registry where you could submit tokens to be listed into a list of tokens. And we said hey but this can be used also for Proof of Human right ? Because it worked very well. And so, the idea of this is just to mention what we did, and to see how we could build together. Because it’s important for the ecosystem. So Clément, maybe you want to go into more detail about all this. Proof of Humanity, I think it’s really a fundamental block of decentralized web. It has been a problem since way before blockchain I think you see it when you do captcha, or when you get people, like corporations receiving messages and then they try to avoid that you register a ton of times to Sybil Attack systems that you do SPAM on forum, on chats. So that’s a really old problem, And it has not really been solved in the web 2. And in web 3 once you give value to people, Like with UBI, it will probably be even worse. Because your incentive to get money from UBI is gonna be even harder than an incentive to go and spam on a forum. So the main idea of Proof of Humanity is to combine social vouching. So to be added to the registry you need to have people already in the registry vouching for you. And a dispute resolution system about a video that you make. You make a small video, You put a sign with your address, and you also put a stake, or people who vouch for you can put a stake instead of you, if they trust you. If someone’s saying that you’re not a human, life deep fake, or […], or whatever you put in the video. Ot that you are already in the registry, they can challenge your submission. And in this case, They would put evidence of why you are already registered, or why your video is fake. Then for that we use a dispute resolution system, that’s where the link with Kleros comes, and if you get challenged, and you lose this challenge, you don’t get tallied to the registry and people who vouched for you get removed from the registry. and I think it’s quite important because we won’t manage to make a perfect system people will manage to fool the system once in a while but if on average you lose more
identities then what you win by trying to attack the system you won’t be able to make a sybil attack where you make one million fake accounts and you use them to steal all the UBI or to make tons of SPAM. So I really think this is a really important brick of the ecosystem, that we are ready now, so you have UBI you have anti-spam mechanism you have quadratic funding. What Vitalik is quite interested in he wrote a paper about liberal radicalism Which is to fund public goods depending on all individuals. You put one DAI and they are gonna be matching your DAI. And the idea that two people putting 1 DAI is more revealing that the project needs to be funded than one person putting 2 DAI. So for this kind of system you need Sybil
protection, because otherwise you just make tons of small fake accounts , you control them by […] And make each of them give 1 DAI And for 1 DAI you get crazy amount of matching from this funding mechanism. I think one of the huge challenges to it is you don’t want people to be tracked on the evidence they make. Because they’re going to get an address which is verified as a non-Sybil human, but you would have your name and your video into it, and may not want everyone to be able to know everything on the web 3. So, one of the challenges is to, from a set of public Sybil-proof identities, create some anonymous Sybil-proof identities. And we have the cryptographic tools for that. Which are trustable ring signatures and we may also use a competing solution, based on ZK proofs. Which may be improved with the work of other people working on this technology. Now I think we can go to people who have a project… … Hello. My name is Andrés Junge, I’m a co-founder of a startup, or a project called uPort. Which is about self-sovereign identity. It’s hosted at Consensys. Well self-sovereign identity is basically identity controlled by the user. I found the registry that Kleros does really
interesting for identity itself. What I want to get out of this meetup is
about two problems we have in identity. One thing is how to prove
someone is a human and not a machine, and the other problem is how to prove the person or someone on the other side just one single unique human and not two we can have two one human can have two or three identities and that will become an issue even if it’s not machine a human can be a Sybil. So I would love to hear ideas on that because that’s something that still somehow the only solution seems to be buying metrics but maybe there’s another thing to solve it. My name is Santiago, I work at Democracy Earth we are a nonprofit organization researching democracy and the
internet for the last five years Identity is very important. We got a grant from Templeton Foundation to deepen our research on exactly Proof of Humanity. And what we realizes is that it’s such a complex problem, that the best we can do right now is learn as much as possible from all the different experiments that are
out there. Trying different angles. I think Kleros is going a direction we are very aligned with at Democracy Earth, on combining TCRs, sortition, and ways of judging proofs that are generated by humans. There are other approaches as
well, I think a principle to abide, was very well stated by Edward
Snowden in in Berlin this summer during web 3, where he said “Don’t verifying the
identity, verify the right to use a technology.” It’s a very subtle distinction but, it’s a very important one. Another thing he said in that same
talk is that the one vulnerability today, being exploited in every system, is identity. So the complexity of identity is very profound because it’s this object that lives in the objective world and the subjective world, or the intersubjective world. And it’s a very, strange part of the universe, those parts that way of framing it. We use attention, as seen in TCR’s but also we need objective ways of trying to fight back there are some projects that I think are worth mentioning, HumanityDAO is one of them. They did a very interesting Proof of
Concept, it’s a TCR over Twitter accounts, There’s a Russian project called Idena which uses Machine Learning-resistant Turing Tests that needs to be solved by all the parties at the same time. That the synchronous solving of Turing Tests, that are hard for machines, but easy for humans, solved at the same time, will give you a certain degree of Sybil resistance, and proof of personhood. Not exactly Proof of Human because maybe there’s a genius that can solve four of these Turing Tests. Where most people can solve one. But that’s like a completely different angle to to the TCR approach, which I thought it was really interesting. I think we have to be very
creative, and I agree if we figure this out, then the social blockchain happens. So far we only had the financial capitalist greedy blockchain, which is great. I’m not complaining. But, if these technologies are going to face society, are going to change, are going to become the narrative of the 21st century, doing democracy, Universal Basic Income, portable credit, better KYC, luxury communism, whatever you want to do that’s social needs this. And we need to start thinking about this very creatively, and start doing these experiments, making these things happen. So I’m looking forward to talk with other people. My name is Audrey I’m a developer. I think that Proof of Humanity is an interesting problem and the two talks between Kleros and Democracy
Earth were kind the most inspiring to me of the conference. I’m here to learn and, try to you help this move forward, and try and try to solve the issues that everyone has talked about also. My name is max I’m from San Francisco, I’m a
nomad at the world down so I’ve been traveling for over a year I’m also part of venture builder called lacunae ventures, and basically there I’m
involved in a decentralized finance project, so me being here is just more of learning anything else I came because of curiosity. Hi guys, I’m Felipe, I work for DAOstack, and I think yeah identity is one of the essential pipelines to create the unlocking of human potential and collective intelligence. and just as legal and many other things that we try
to solve and I’ve been keeping an eye on Kleros, I’m a blockchain baby as well, I’m not that old in the scene. Kleros was there at the first event
that we organized in Berlin. And I’ve been keeping an eye out for what you guys do since then. And a lot of beautiful things have happened. And also I’m friends with Siri for many years, so I could not conceive not being here. I’m very very tired, almost about to pass out standing here. But let’s push it a little bit more. The state of the art of identity or self-sovereign identity basically, it’s we have identifiers which the thing is that they
can be controlled by users so basically identifiers are keys like cryptographic keys that you can use to sign things. Right? The most important part is that these keys allow you to sign things and the things that you sign are called attestations. Which means like my identifiers Esther
is identifiers it’s attached to some – something called a name and/or title
name and that name value is valid right and you can prove that what I say is
true because it’s signed by me and my key is stored on the blockchain the only
the only thing that should be on the blockchain this sense is the key the
public key that I used to sign so that way
not any information is stored on the blockchain or any personal identifier
information stored on blockchain scope for the repo and everybody else is
protected and so Rico has that information that I said about him and he
can pass that information to anybody in so stop no way he can decide who to give
them to or not and that way anybody can check that I said so that’s where we are
right now there’s standards for that we have a lot
of companies to do the same thing or pretty much the same thing we’re
fighting way to standardize that but the challenge mainly here is like okay what
is when I say about verticals true or not that that’s one one thing the other
thing is Who am I like you only see me as a VAD or identifier right this
identifier said something about that identified but you don’t know anything
about me you need to have a Anti station about me say by somebody else and then
you have the problem of like who is this somebody else so verifies it verified
very fast verifier so the propulsor is like building something we call a web of
trust so it’s a community that like can be big and be small it’s an ecosystem
may be that we can say okay one’s gonna be the verified for all of us and we go
to him and he says like okay my name is Andreas your name is Federico whatever
and we don’t trust him right the other way to do it is to have
a different like okay I would I will trust Kwan and I will trust Federico and
whatever they say that whatever one says is trust I will trust him implicitly
also so that that’s a way of that’s one challenge like who were how to verify
the Baelfire and the other issues like what I said first is like what how do I
know what I’m saying is true so he that that’s where the that is the order to be
the way she comes to my for me it’s like okay the community can can verify that
like if I say or if many people say okay this here are the station that this the
ad is about this guy okay great but you can challenge that if you have proof
that that that I did identify it’s not about him right and another in the
concept soft of humanity because that at the station identified thing works for
machines to like we can have identified its fires for IOT devices or for
applications that apps contracts whatever right
but to prove that something is a human then we have the issue about like okay
how can i how can I prove that the thing that I’m testing or the identifier is
about a human so all these solutions you’re coming out makes a lot of sense
but somehow relates with it with the thing about like what if for example
Federico has more than one identifier because it’s a good practice to have
more than one identifier maybe I have an identifier a job and my job that allows
me to somebody give me gives me an attestation that I’m allowed to enter
the company or that I’m an employee of the company so I will receive a salary
or whatever and then I have another identifier that I don’t know a poker
player because uh and I don’t want those two identifiers like mixed together
because of my company that would not like me that I’m a fucking player and
anything my poker friends I don’t want they then to know that I mean this
company because so if I want to build a system for bowling or for ubi or
something like that we can have many identifiers so how how do I know that
this joy that fires is exactly the same person or the same human and in that
context the problem is that it’s in each of these two faiths it’s one of these
two fake now both are are true because both are identified so for me right but
we need a way to prove that these two identifiers is the same so if I don’t
come can come to a no bi system and say hey this is my fire I’m human prove that
this one side and I got like two times that the press so one proposal is the
one that something proposed or talked about is still the Russian vice-like saw
the problem at the same time so that will try to solve the thing that you
only can solve one problem at a time so if all solved the problem safe is
central four different books at the same time I cannot solve two but then some
people can stop – so there’s there’s this some we need we need to test that
so those are the challenges I’m happy to come with a BS Webster in some world
I’ve been different identifiers for different purpose fire I know each tube
leaks we provide entity to create one I believe identity API from one because
fire get multiple animals fire for different purpose that’s only specific
purpose can only make one of them you can make no specific so you can attack
because you can create one woman’s identity on each of the systems but not
two times on the same system yeah but that’s a challenge how I mean
creating identifies it’s just as creating a pair of keys so if I’m if I’m
a bad actor and I want to gain the UVI system I say okay the you be a system
will ask me okay which is your identified what I create one then I come
back to play the next day and say hey there is another one and I crate like
many more as you mean that we’ve already managed to have what not nice to predict
yeah so my thing here is that proving that you’re a human
maybe it’s a different challenge that proving you are not a civil right oh he
like probability is really about having to see proof little humans well that’s
to two problems combining serum on you man yeah yeah yeah that’s a challenge
that mean probing your humor maybe it’s more easy that TCR maybe can solve that
but proving your you’re not a stable it’s I think it’s harder Green s uses a social graph yeah how do
you so if you have one weak link in that social graph does that not collapse was
further down the line so once verifier but if he starts verifying and you get
one weak link how do you move past that one weak link
is that an attack vector afford yeah an ORAC obviously it must be wonderful wine
as well he’s the verifier than he’s hoping to i bribery attacks right yeah
sir do we maybe we don’t have a solution to that but is that something you guys
obviously came across yeah i mean the system we already have in place has one
trusted verify or a couple of clusters verifier and we put the trust on those
purifiers so if we want to decentralize that trust then well there’s I guess
what’s the UN the ones that say okay instead of instead of you giving me an
attestation about from an issuer that we trust I will more or more the amount of
attestation about about you what your present for example instead of set
instead of you saying hey give me an attestation from one or each to problem
one that says my name is Andres please provide me hundred at the station saying
you are address because I will trust that more than trusting one so I mean it
this is this was for a the refugees problem right the refugees came in it
says like hey give me your identities like what is your name well I lost my
identity because my my government died or whatever so so why is your name well
100 people here from my town say my name is a place for probably my name is
Andres they call me a question whatever so maybe that’s the way to solve it in
you know like having a community that had somehow proves that you are do you
have some specific accident okay what I mean what if you have like a second wife
in the next town over with a second family and you go by another name I mean
yeah it just seems like a real problem to me which I like I don’t have an
answer to it by any means but like
as we talk about ways to like to use your social graph to prove who you are I
mean I think I know more than one person MIT I mean myself included I have an
alias that I go by I mean almost more frequently than I use my real name
I mean how many people have like personal email and business email right
exactly yeah it seems like it just just another another problem to think about
yeah and also somehow it feels like it’s two people in the same body somehow so
we want to prove that you’re a single body or you’re not proof like because
this two person like behave behave differently maybe in some people they
have like different thoughts or I like maybe in in my java haha political
opinion any good my friends I have another one great so it’s like maybe
you’re an identical twin like yeah person with multiple personalities is
what purse is one human race Mooji few months I saw that movie doing xsplit so
if we want to prove that you’re a single button or gonna prove your eurocine
single I mean maybe this is going to be like what is the first right the only
access is a physically normal person so I for now the way to go for it was
probably my project okay sweetie in this game you’re going
to be the same person in the video and fishing for attack girls to challenge
them if incident we knew a video of the same person and so I don’t think you
thinking about the principle – Emily you probably won’t be able to because of
that we also spoke about social graph Rises
I think that’s cameras in some kind of evidence registering our challenge social graph you need to have some
people who trust the first place cannot even meet make sense machine learning or
something that can check that two videos look the same guy and beginning people
operation I think that’s all the video but once you get more and more user I
didn’t have some tunes which feature I only know the kids which are likely to
be and I forgot I’m attending to the system exact people which are
specifically good it specifically trained to find it to face it all
assignments my concern video is that the emergence of updates
it’s barely beginning and we extrapolate Moore’s Law it much that happen the next
five to ten years not only defects swapping our faces and you know killing
the uncanny valley I’m being indistinguishable like there’s this
website that I really like all this person is not real but this is not a
person calm and every time you refresh it’s a gun generated face that is
completely indistinguishable than an average photograph of an average human
these are completely artificial and eventually we will get defects with
voices it takes hold on their ID for came I see yeah so it’s this is like
super scary stuff I would try to weaponize this stuff to discredit legacy
politics so I mean the yang Tao which were doing the effects of a hundred yeah
just inject confusion in existing political landscape but in our wrong
world this is a bit concerned we we gave a lot of top to video as well I still
think video is still there it’s easy humans to process card for machines
still you know for for AI you have to have a good data set I mean you have to
do a lot of curation with the data to get a good deep fail video is not that
simple right now but it can be super simple in 5-10 years and that’s one of
the question once I put to the media approach yes the time people meet up so
many times I had some CDs Fagen videos becomes so important to get the
same identities one part of our time was yeah I advise people to all go in there
to verify that when two people are there I don’t so you can start with that
because it’s too much it’s hot oh yeah good thing is really gonna be
something that will have multiple sources of proof and you need to need to
find a way to score this but the scoring you know who which is the watch who
could who does the algorithm who decides how this for works so the scoring itself
requires some source of legitimacy where the identity is being produced by the
score also decide how these four words Dow and stock and then beside okay know
that this kind of a bit and that we are gonna use to the timeline someone is an
attacker or not perhaps come back a bit under the fake so that can be scary even
that’s maybe sure that’s gonna manage to fool computers too so the face may be
really great for humans fine machine learning by detecting if something is
fake or not looking pretty know who’s gonna win some race maybe you want to
treat an AI as a human why not I don’t know or maybe we can you must go back to
schizophrenic state of mind like there’s this book from 1991 called the become in
our mind that argues that originally humans were schizophrenic and we just
moved away with culture and language but you read that the ancient Greeks they
talk up with the gods and they talk about the story indistinguishable
because their sense of self they believed it was their sense of the
different thought that they were being incremented by at the moment because
there were polytheists so the morally schizophrenic and maybe we go back to
that or maybe we even really find a political subject and the political
subject is no longer the human individual as capitalist society a
constrained estimated and maybe political subject like equality birthing
is multiple mineral groups competing for those who can allocate many votes on a
single issue I mean we I think that there’s a lot of things that we need to
be challenged even what does it mean to be human because now even like imagine you guess
me I both clever and have more emotion on stage than humans the probably gonna
give in triplicate ways you are the Newman’s so you may still not want to
allow them because you can see when he’s here about human being a judge of the
TCR that a human maybe today I can see things on the on the ripples of the
pixels of the a garden that a human cannot see but if you cannot parsley the
beats of a grain you can probably see you know the signature of the algorithm
somewhere and maybe that would turn a Isaac to the best validators of humans
that was my first comment it’s both yeah this is 22 no you want everyone in
the list so but this is time as a human and this is tell us both and you also
can a reputation and everything but I like okay ha na right now did fake
videos are a problem because maybe we can start with that the videos in the
next two years I’m they start to be like impossible to
distinguish then we just be something else I think that we can do to increase
the cost of attacks on videos and maybe gain some time related on how advanced
AI is detective it is just to change the subject and the challenge that we are
getting on the video so if we’re making a video like oh just show your garlic
here this is say something else then maybe it’s easier to create a deep fake
but we can make a another type of challenge which is like if someone gives
a little bit more information I’ll say over where they’re located
geographically you can just say oh go to this place and do like this so this we
say it’s related to what we do in blockchain and proof of something
algorithm I welcome they make some new algorithm we shall need to so if someone
managed to break welcome very same can change the pro and orissa between you
are tourism which so see that like proof of human well especially management is
human walk when you change the world so just fashion cannot evolve faster
than you you change it well like the video so do you actually
produce something discussed this but I think it’s actually a pretty big point
what happens in a video site if Frank I think this might work for this but I say
let’s take you know you know Islam the more draconian measures of Islamists in
center Rabin whatever wouldn’t show their faces are they excluded because
they’re not allowed to show their basis we just split them how can we how do we
build that barrier to love them it so even in a radical version of Islam
you’re supposed to show your faces to just about this fight I’m having spoken
we serve radical Islam is like are they going to do that with the
dangers of me you can argue that they should assume you know to do that you
could argue it whether that means that on the ground at their level it makes a
difference I don’t know that’s like I mean I have a few issues my video the
same scientific okay you’re showing your face with your work right yeah and also
if you had communication which you mentioned and you’re starting dangerous
then I say okay prove me that what is your name
whatever there’s some standards but basically prove me that you are who are
you he gave me his passport whatever document he had whatever I said okay I
can say that his uh his human first and he and he also is right so then I had
all this information and sign that for too risky so I he and then I gave it
that information to him so he start collecting in different events well in
an event like this you can collect like ten or twelve right so all these things
were made to gather more score because the more people that cite you
the more people somehow verifies you so if you want to be part in the Debian
government if you want to be far like maintainer or something you need to have
at least some amount of people verify you so people actually came to those
parties so they can verify if you want to be a maintainer you must go to around
the world and they will say your head why did you sending my kidneys and
there’s some sound like suppose to do that then you start collecting these
signatures from from other people so maybe a good idea is that wife next step
corn or something we propose event or something like hey let’s sign all the
keys or come up with yukia and like let’s do an event dances what was the
incentive for at that time so I know I know what kind of the the coaching
you’re talking about it I was young for that but what was the incentive that of
surrounding economic incentives and stakes in game in what was I guess at
that point it was just a you know friendly commodity to not be malicious
or was there like a another incentive like for example you can gain the system
like if we if we all like say let’s sign that this guy is Bill Gates right sure
and we all signed a hey hey this is Bill Gates and you can go back to hey you
have a twenty signatures to say I’m Bill Gates right yeah but if those signal if
for example I’m part I was part of the Debian break I never would signed up
because I don’t want to pollute the whole system with a we’re not fake ID
right so basically I won’t sign them to that and like people try and behave
because they don’t want the system to be corrupted right the Dvorak yeah yeah
most mostly because the people the people that started the projects were
started least there were like 50 people and they assigned themselves and when
they must start adding new people they they didn’t have take people and even if
I group tried to I delete you you think it worked but if he lied about being
Bill Gates because maybe he was in like the CIA there’s actually like real
incentives for I’m just saying for like really government actors to yeah my Mac
II was signed by all the like somebody somebody lying is is another available
because what’s your name he can like when I can I would try to to verify that
it’s actually clinical so I would not just his work I will say hey give me
your passport give me your and I yeah so this is a fake passport
I need to check something faster so did you do that good and perfect yeah I love
the key party idea there was something at Def Con next year I would definitely
100% building survey everyone’s in there I really think you guys should do some
sort of ancillary fees because if you want to go then to do some work first
like before like you need to create an Ian need to do how what are the rules
they say you have to stick some sort of an action soon you all like yeah for
example you can you can stick some some money and in case you are you are doing
bad purification sore loser indication like if you just ask him in the deciding
whatever then yeah maybe we can add some some of us can’t act like plus a bad
actor to see the system asking for somebody to sneak in a fake sure a
profile yeah I’m super into this yeah because we’re all doing so is a small on
the dev site if you bring that whole system just like being an asshole
they’re fighting because that’s possible but I don’t know in person it might be a
little bit more edgy to be like that you know maybe you’re more likely to act
morally advantage I’m serious probably have to do with okay all of us okay yeah
but I realized

1 Comment on "Proof of Humanity Meetup @ Devcon 5, Osaka – Kleros House"


  1. Too bad video / sound quality.
    The subject even if it is interesting, i drop it. Make a good quality video and provide your message and only that

    Reply

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