Thomas Sowell Dismantles Egalitarianism (Frances Fox Piven Edition)

Thomas Sowell Dismantles Egalitarianism (Frances Fox Piven Edition)


SOWELL: I think we’re talking at cross-purposes.
On the one hand we’re talking about results that we’re hoping for. On the other hand we’re
talking about processes that we’re setting in motion. You’re saying, should we hope for
certain kinds of lessening of inequality and so on? The real question, the political question
is: Shall we set in motion certain processes because we hope for that and do those processes
enhance or reduce freedom? And I think the argument that Milton is making and certainly
the argument that I would make is that the attempt at doing these things – and it doesn’t
really matter, it’s a complete straw man to talk about absolute inequality if you’re – JAY: It’s your straw man. SOWELL: — no, no not at all. JAY: Yes it is. Absolutely throughout the
film this is the straw man he brings up in order to say how ridiculous to have absolute
equality. And then he goes on to say – SOWELL: No. JAY: — how ridiculous to have – SOWELL: My whole point is — as a result,
you see, that you set up processes and the end result may not be any more or less inequality
that exists now, but the question of it is, those processes may indeed reduce freedom
greatly. I would go beyond the question of equality and put it more generally that any
process to ascribe any status to any group of people, equality, inferiority, superiority,
must necessarily reduce freedom, because whatever the government wishes to ascribe to any group,
whatever place– to use the phrase that was very common in the South, that blacks should
have their place– whatever place the government is going to assign to people, that place will
not coincide — wait — that place will not coincide either with what all those people
are doing, or with how others perceive all those people, because there’s too much diversity
among human beings. To maintain any system of ascribed status from the top is going to
mean reducing people’s freedom across the spectrum. That’s the point. PIVEN: People have an ascribed status. It
isn’t as if government by its intervention creates it, people are born into this world
in a given sector of the society, and many, many of them are born at the bottom of the
society. The argument of, about equality of results was an argument that was linked to
equality of opportunity. People recognized that unless there was a degree of equality
in — a degree – of enough food, enough security, access to education, unless these
things were available to all children, then equality of opportunity was merely a mockery.
That’s why equality of results became an issue and it became an issue for black people in
the United States and they expressed their concern whatever the opinion polls – SOWELL: You expressed it, dammit, look! PIVEN: They expressed – SOWELL: No, they did not! They did not! (Applause) SOWELL: Dammit. PIVEN: They expressed that. MCKENZIE: Frances finish it and then reply. PIVEN: They expressed their will by their
extraordinary participation in a protest movement that began in the late 1950s and didn’t end
until the 1960s. SOWELL: I have never – PIVEN: Intellectuals were not in that protest
movement. Black people were in that protest. SOWELL: You want me to answer or do you want
to keep on? Do you want me to answer it? PIVEN: I’ve finished. SOWELL: Good. Black people have never supported,
for example, affirmative action, quotas, anything of that sort. Wherever polls have been taken
of black opinion on such matters as should people be paid equally or should there be
this or that, black people have never taken a position that you described. So it is not
a question of what black people chose to do. It’s what you choose to put in the mouths
of black people and it’s what you choose to project. It is not what any black people have
ever said anywhere that you could put your finger on. PIVEN: It’s what you choose to put into the
mouths of the pollsters, as far as I can see. SOWELL: I put in the mouth of the pollsters? PIVEN: Look at the leadership of the black
community. SOWELL: Like most people I have never seen
a pollster. (Laughter) PIVEN: If you look at the leadership of the
black – (Applause) FRIEDMAN: But I want to go back to the – MCKENZIE: Yeah. FRIEDMAN: — I want to carry it back to an
earlier point. Number one, there’s no question but what equality of results, if it comes
about through a framework of freedom, is a desirable result. Number two, I argue in the film I’ve argued
here, that in point of fact you get greater equality of actual results by a system under
which people are free to achieve unequal results, that for the poor people of the world that
Frances Fox Piven was talking about, the most effective mechanism for enabling them to improve
their status is not a governmental program which seeks to ascribe to them certain positions,
which seeks to provide them with certain goods and services, but a governmental program which
tries to eliminate arbitrary barriers to advancement. I would say that in this world, the greatest
source of inequality has been special privileges granted by government. That government, you
may talk a great deal, there may be a lot of talk about how we’re going to eliminate
inequality. But if you look at — go back to your case of Britain. Is there any doubt
that one of the effects of governmental intervention in Britain has been to create new opportunities
for special classes? That the way to get wealthy in a society that supposedly is aiming at
equality, that the way to get wealthy is to get a special government permit to import-
to get foreign exchange or to import goods or to — in this country to set up a television
station.

100 Comments on "Thomas Sowell Dismantles Egalitarianism (Frances Fox Piven Edition)"


  1. At this time this video has 403,320 views and is eight years old. It deserves 100X that, but is lost on most. Ironically, over the long haul free markets are more collective and just than any government controlled program because they draw on the combined wisdom of the population. It's not mandated strictly by the "enlightened", who demand cures at any cost with unintended consequences that are most often far worse than the diseases they aim to correct.

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  2. Someone should've smacked the shit out of that millionaire "socialist". How does anyone fall under the spell of somebody that refuses to practice what they preach.

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  3. those people belong in africa where their adaptations naturally fit. this argument now is ludicrous. you dont own them. put them back where you took them from. they are not your eternal problem

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  4. That Frances Fox Piven is one of the concoctors of the Cloward-Piven strategy, which called for the overwhelming of institutions such as welfare and healthcare with ever greater demands to break it. Their desired result would be for the gov't to take it over.

    What we are experiencing today is in large part due to her malice.

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  5. He is a genius. Check out another genius in regards to what happens to the left. check out how Richard Rorty predicted at 1996 like a prophet how the left would abandon their main core of voters and abandon nationalism, which was always something important for them, pride over their country.

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  6. Francis Fox, like most people falls for the propaganda. She sees hundreds, or thousands of black activists protesting, and she thinks they speak for all black folks.

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  7. Leftists always assume that everyone wants the same thing in life. Forcing equal outcomes goes against freedom, and would make propel unhappy for various reasons.

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  8. Sweden tried to force equal outcomes between men and women and the workforce, but ended up with the opposite outcome, as people, men and women want different things — are attracted to different careers etc

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  9. for them to force equities, they are saying that minorities are stupid like children and therefore need government to take care of them.
    come off the plantation.
    supporter 45.

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  10. I never met an "egalitarian" who wasn't an elitist. In fact, most of them are just trying to usurp government power to recreate caste systems with themselves at the top of it.

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  11. They're still trying to sell equality of outcome.
    Either they're dumb, or they know what they're offering, hoping they make a weak society that relies on the government.

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  12. The government gave whites money, land, welfare, housing, loans etc. For the purpose of building wealth for themselves.

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  13. Unfortunately, Sowell would be wrong today when he said that blacks don't want affirmative action and quotas in hiring. The left wing brain washing has been much more effective since this was recorded.

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  14. Tom put his ideas together in the 70's based on his experience growing up in the 50's and 60's. Then the main problem seemed to be government churning funds. This cannot be interpreted as meaning we can be flippant at the effects of fractional reserve usury funnelling all the money up to the already rich and destroying rational economic allocation. We should all be small government egalitarians. Nothing Tom knows can go against this bias that I'm prescribing.

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  15. $22 trillion on poverty programs didn’t do diddly. If that money was given in vouchers for housing, education etc poor people of all colors would have ran to private apartments & private schools. Genocidal Francis Fox Piven should be tried for Human Rights Abuses. Look at the Cities run by her vision. They are a disaster. Millions of minorities are trapped there for generations and can’t move few blocks let alone the next municipality or state. Disgusting 🤭

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  16. “I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
    ―     Thomas Sowell,   Barbarians inside the Gates and Other Controversial Essays  Hopefully this is relevant to this video.

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  17. Is it just me… or does seem super relevant today? As if we are now seeing firsthand the consequence of such governmental interventions.

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  18. Thomas is clearly lying; it is no secret that MLK did believe in wealth redistribution, a universal basic income, and Malcolm X believed in reperations aswell. So to say that the lady was "putting words in the mouths of blacks", is clearly a lie…when's the last time any black institution refused public hand outs?

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  19. That woman with the bird nest on her head=cultural appropriation.
    She is trying to be superior to Thomas’ hair. Racism.

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  20. Thomas is one equal / dominate guy… he makes me respect the f out of him!

    We can see that he was a merit and individual over a collectivist.

    Wow, super admire him. He challenges me by his own presence her to become better, smarter and more articulate and assertive.

    A Black man as intellectual muse to me… why so few of them ? It’s because of the affirmative actions and so forth we see less Thomas Sowels as they get drowned out by “others” places into positions based on birth and low effort actions…

    Thomas is a admirable being and I’m glad I saw this. We can see he is athema to a divide and conquer-

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  21. Hello, Gentlemen in the comments, which film are they talking about? I would really appreciate this information, thanks in advance.

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  22. A highly educated white person explaining to you how real the black struggle is in America? Thomas Sowell, welcome to the white struggle.

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  23. Wow, Sowell came within inches of naming the Jew, and their role in the civil Rights movement. It's too bad he didn't have the courage to do it.

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  24. Equality of results . I thought for a minute . No , no comment , thats just too stupid to even address .

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  25. The vast, vast majority of white supremacy resides on the left. Just seeing that bitch trying to tell TS what he himself is supposed to think, makes me sick.

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  26. How Ironic that Thomas Sowell was a professor at a university in California. How times have changed.

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  27. Thomas Sowell you started out with the correct definition of equality for instance during the middle passage the Africans that survived a trip across the Atlantic ocean in the bottom of a slave ship packed together like sardines with the least amount of water and food while forced to lay in their own feces the millions that died were unequal to the survivors just as many people black and white can't equal your understanding of numbers everyone is good at something but when you added the government to the equation your argument fell apart no one has benefited from government assistance as much as white people any person with an eighth grade education can understand that you are motivated by the all mighty dollar nothing wrong with making money however I would like to think that those of us who are unequal to you could count on you having some integrity

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  28. So funny to see Piven tell Sowell what black people want I couldn't image having that level of gumption, please white liberal tell me more about my black struggle. The Pivens of the world gave birth to the social justice warrior b.s.

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  29. Thomas Sowell is not a great debater… he's just right, and knows his shit, and when you're right and know your shit, there's no need to debate. Of course I'm being facetious, as he's an excellent orator, but really, there's no debating with him, or Friedman for that matter. It's like arguing the Moon is made of cheese with Neil Armstrong.

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  30. There are clearly disadvantaged people. We can’t create the perfect equality of opportunity situation because that would be playing monopoly where everyone starts out with same amount of money.

    So we can’t duplicate a pure meritocracy.

    But if we try for equality of outcome, the result is still much much worse.

    Better schools and safe neighborhoods is necessary to give people a fighting chance.

    But when we get to the point of literally having quotas for each minority group and each group has to have proper representation at the table…

    That’s where things go crazy to me!!!

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  31. Equality is a political lie. And anyone who believes it is a fool.
    Back then it was black people at the forefront, now its women.
    Many black people are still to this day, brainwashed and used as pawns.
    Women will end up the same way.

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  32. Has anyone ever noticed there is no such thing as a great black leftist intellectual, they are all conservative (at least in the US) Sowell put that best also. black conservatives have to learn to fight for their position from the time they are young because they are ridiculed by the black community.

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  33. Frances Fox Piven is a communist who designed a plan ( Cloward-Piven Strategy) to overload the welfare system in order to crash the economy, bankrupt the government,  to overthrow the government and bring in a totalitarian communist replacement.

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  34. At 1:45 this Frances Fox-Piven comes on. This woman authored the "Cloward-Piven Strategy", first ID'd to me by Glenn Beck. Granted, Beck is a "somewhat loon", but he got this right. THIS is from Wikipedia … so if THAT leftist-group says this much, then Cloward-Piven is worse than one might be told.
    The long and short of this system is to (1) make everyone dependent on the system, thus (2) overwhelming the system to the level of collapse.

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  35. At 1:45 this woman comes on. This woman authored the "Cloward-Piven Strategy", first ID'd to me by Glenn Beck. Granted, Beck is a "somewhat loon", but he got this right. THIS is from Wikipedia … so if THAT leftist-group says this much, then Cloward-Piven is worse than one might be told.

    "Piven was born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada,[2] of Russian Jewish immigrant parents,[4] Rachel (née Paperny) and Albert Fox, a storekeeper." …………… More of "my kind" … my grandfathers and fathers were Russian Jewish immigrant shopkeepers. They were too busy to become Leftists … but THIS is the danger of "my kind". This has morphed into college programs and social do-gooders flooding the colleges and halls of power.

    The long and short of this system is to (1) make everyone dependent on the system, thus (2) overwhelming the system to the level of collapse.

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  36. What is freedom? Freedom to register a car in one's name with the state that can be taken or possessed at anytime for any whimsical reason given by an authoritarian governing body??

    Think about it, we can't do anything nowadays without a license i.e. license to fish, license to camp, license to own a weapon, drive, to hunt, own a business, create a song etc. I'm convenienced we don't even know what "freedom" even is; to me it's a board term thrown around which is usually associated with many ideals and interpretations by various people with differing values…it's a generic and hollow term. How can a people who don't know what freedom is truly get freedom?

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  37. Another white person with the white savior complex trying to use Black community struggle to further her political career. yeeesh times never change

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  38. btw this guy advocated for supply side economics. one of the biggest uncle toms of all time. its too bad he wasnt tortured when he was alive for what he's done

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  39. Damn..This really shows how long we've dealing with identity politics and how long we've been seeing one group of people, try to sell oppression to another group..

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  40. Is it to anyone's surprise then, that the most unequally affluent among us, especially those with the influence of celebrity, are the greatest preachers of equality?

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  41. This is the only time I've ever seen Thomas Sowell lose his composure, and even then it was only for a few seconds.

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  42. equality of opportunity can only be measured in the final results……….thus making the equality of opportunity a facade argument by player haters.

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  43. Marxists, like Piven love to project and tell you how to think. What nerve of her to misrepresent the sentiments of Blacks. I'm glad Sowell shut her down.

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  44. There is NOTHING, more unequal than the subjects under a big government. This is true throughout human history. No matter what the governments pretends to be – the bigger they are, the more inequality they produce, due to the political monopoly of resources and information, and nepotism.

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  45. Francis Fox Piven, communist, along with her husband Richard Cloward, their names were attatched to a strategy for the dismantling of capitalism in the United States.

    Using the poor, the plan is to recruit large numbers of them, all eligible for government programs, in enough numbers to overwhelm government agencies with requests for assistance. When the government is unable to meet all the demands, the idea is to then set off waves of violence and protests nationwide.

    A "crisis" is created and will need an immediate "fix".

    A socialist plan for wealth redistribution would then be "proposed" and adopted.
    This is an evil woman. She has no real love for the poor, or black people in particular. Just a burning hatred for the rich and successful.

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  46. They’ve been pushing socialism through minority’s against their will for a loooooonnnngg time.

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  47. Seems that Friedman conveniently ignores the reality that it's not necessarily the government that is at fault here. The issue is the corruption of government by the hands of special interests and corporations to influence the system in their favor. This truth doesn't fit in his Hayekian ideology therefore he says that it's the government's fault. Further, these same bad actors and interests would continue to rig the system without said government through collusion, price fixing and other means.

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  48. Perfect: White women have taken it upon themselves to become and then speak for the oppressed to which they have all the answers.

    They never ask what do you want but rather this is what is best for you. And they think their hands are clean and they aren’t racist.

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  49. You reach a certain mentality and you start thinking differently about life. When your efforts to become a more responsible person everyday take over your life… you have awoken. Lead life by example.

    Reply

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